Kingdom related suggestion
Old 06-22-2008, 09:40 PM   #1
Soulless
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Default Kingdom related suggestion

edit: tl;dr (too long; didn't read) version:

...well, just read everything before the Considerations part.


I had an idea the other day that could make the game a lot more interesting. The numbers provided are not mathematically worked out to be the most efficient but rather to serve as an example for argument's sake, although it could be implemented as is and then tweaked. Read at least the main points before posting... I would suggest reading the considerations too but I'm not naive enough to expect you to keep your attention on a thread for more than 15 lines.

-Essentially, for every 1k kingdoms that you own (rounded to nearest 1k to reduce potential abuse), you are "open" to nuking for one hour per day. While you are "open", kingdoms taken from you with aftershock remain with 100% of their runes instead of 10%. Once per hour, if you are tected your "open hours" left are reduced by 1, stopping at 0.
-Tects and stones have a chance to fail relative to how many kds you own (50% if you have 2k, 33% for 3k, etc).
-There is a limit to how many kingdoms you can lose before you are immediatly no longer open regardless of how many hours are left. More details on this system below.
-The attack and defense penalties from corruption are lifted, but interest corruption is kept in to aid smaller players. However, this interest corruption would be capped at 40% so that you can still make 500m per kd, an amount close to what we used to make before corruption was added.

The "protection" system would ensure bigger players can't just profit nuke out smaller ones for free. It also ensures a clan can't go ahead and completely take out a big enough threat for near free by using well planned team nukes; the system I'm proposing would make it so if you want to blitz someone, it'll be expensive, or if you nuke them slowly to make it cheaper then the defenders will have more of an opportunity to prepare a counter strike/alch out/respond in some way. Keep in mind that without a limit of this kind, one could put together say 5 nukers and nuke out a noob with 1k kds for free in one hour before the opening is gone.
There'd be an "open kingdom count". At the end of dmu, this count is increased by 10% (5% with a DRC equipped) of their kds for each holder, but this would be capped at 10% (5%) and never go above that number with the exception of holders gaining kds. When you settle, overthrow, or are given a kingdom, your count goes up by 1. When a kingdom of yours is overthrown, this number goes down by 1, and when it hits 0, you are no longer "open" and cannot be profit nuked for the rest of the day unless you gain kds in some way. Your count does not go down after giving away kingdoms to avoid exploits. It also is reset to 0 before adding the daily 5-10% if it had previously gone negative, or it can just never go negative.

Considerations:
-Profit nuking does not mean the gold is kept in the server as Lord Sin pointed out in another discussion, since the original gold that was nuked with is permanently gone, and the new gold in the nuker's hands (if he manages to take it out quickly enough) was transfered from the victim.
-As of an old update, for every 900 kds you own in a plane, attacks against you on that plane have a 1% higher chance to be stealthy. Because of this, it would not be wise to hold a 200x200 plex under one character just because corruption would be now capped; it would be mad profit nuking (4k kds per day with the given numbers, and with insane stealth to make the nuking faster and tons cheaper). I have nuked plexes with 10-20% bonus stealth and I believe the difference is pretty large.
-With a system of this kind, it would be a more even playing field between smaller and bigger players, while not being utter bull****. If someone with 10k kds goes ahead and takes on a smaller guy with say 500, then he will stand a chance to lose a lot more since every day a good enough portion of his empire will be open for cheap nuking, implying that with good timing and skill, the smaller guy could even go as far as methodically taking 10% (5%) of the other guy's kds every day without having much external funding. The bully would most likely not stop at one person, and eventually he might just run into that guy with a few tril and the will to nuke that gives him at the very least a headache.
-With the ruleset proposed, there are a number of interesting side effects. For one, it makes the "rogue" nuke mule more viable and fun to play, as you could go around messing with just about everyone with relatively small funding, though you will obviously make a number of enemies. Also, if someone wants the most out of their gold when they nuke you, they will potentially stop after you go into "protection", after which point you don't have to worry as much about being nuked because they're wasting gold anyway.
-I can't think of smart ways to exploit this. If you use several characters to hold your kds to make more gold, then you will need a DRC for each of them if you want them all to stay at no more than 5% open kds. If you tect yourself to avoid being open every day, then you'll be spending more gold than you make with the proposed numbers, aka you're going negative and screwing yourself over anyway with no effort from your enemies. Keep in mind that your open count goes up by 1 every time you gain a kingdom, so settling a bunch of empties then nuking yourself doesn't really work.
-If you want to expand to more kingdoms and don't have 3 quad muled, then you will probably not be expading a lot, or you will do it with weak, easy to take kingdoms, or you will weaken your current kingdoms to make the newer ones defendable. And with this implemented, the more kingdoms you have, the more you will be open to near free or even profit nuking.
-Although more kingdoms means more advantage to macroers, if they don't pay attention then they end up banned to an account lock, and if they do then they're still spending hours sitting there probably not doing something that requires them to pay full attention (like playing another game), then they're at least still wasting time just as much as anyone else that doesn't macro.
-Corruption was not the solution. It does nothing but delay the inevitable and I can easily prove this if necessary.
-DRC would receive a defensive purpose again that is not a 100% must have kind of thing, yet quite helpful.
-Some other **** I forgot.

All in all, I think this would make the game more even, and make it so nuking is worth it in certain situations. For example, on s1 as it stands it would be pretty stupid unless you plan to fall behind people who aren't nuking. If you can do at least some nuking at small cost or even profit (And keep in mind that's if no one defends, and then taking out the leftover runes is still time consuming, as is nuking itself) then it makes more sense to go ahead and rape that expansion of weak kingdoms the big guy just laid out. Instead of "fair" wars being stalemates, being aggressive could actually yield an advantage and a winner; hell, both sides could nuke each other and use what they make to continue to nuke each other, instead of giving defense the undeniable upper hand. On s2, Rath and I would stop being mathematically impossible to take out, while by far still not a trivial task. With the suggested limitations, it is still not unfair to bigger plex holders in my opinion, while also not being unfair to smaller plex holders; I think this is excellent balance. Discuss/flame as your heart desires. Hate mail for wasting your time on a long read can go to my visitor messages or w/e they're called, or PM to keep the thread as clean as possible.

Last edited by Soulless; 06-22-2008 at 09:44 PM..
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:25 AM   #2
Lord Sin
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I really like this idea.... it keeps it fair to new smaller plex holders and makes larger plex holders work more to keep there gold... it takes gold out of the game at a decent rate... be nice to have something cap corruption for a character nuking though like a character with DRC equipped does not recieve the reduction in nuking from corruption... something to stop them damn strays from being such a pain in the ass...

but even as said... great idea be something better than the bordom we have now would also give a reason to own kingdoms instead of reaching 2k and having corruption rape you if you go higher... a cap at 500m/kd for a 48 hour bez would solve that although i think you would see alot of people build thick walls of low characters like 7 chars holding kingdoms in a wall... 1k kingdoms each... then a single char holding the rest the plex on a 300x60 like my north sur on s1 ... that would make me a strong 30 kingdom wall and hold the rest under a single char... if you do that might i suggest allowing tectons to stack or something... 1 tecton... stage one... 5 tectons stage 2 = 1.5x damage 10 tectons stage 3... 2x damage (numbers just for reffrence) to allow busting through a wall... then into the crap plex inside that im sure will be built because to be honest a 0 corruption 75 rune wall 30 kingdoms deep and it wont matter... you still wont get far and i can still have 5000 kingdoms built as 2 runers inside making 500m/kingdom interest unless you really feel like wasting the time to tect every 3rd kingdom to break the wall... and since it seems all large plex holders are teamed... its just not going to happen where someone could save up 5t and nuke right through 0 corruption 75s still be slow... but it works....

Last edited by Lord Sin; 06-23-2008 at 12:29 AM..
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:44 AM   #3
Diashan
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I thought about the wall idea also, but it wont work. Say you have a 30 deep wall with a 60x300 of 2's behind it. That's like 10 tects or so to skip in, which really isn't that much gold on s1. Then the nuker can nuke 10% of those 18k KD's with no rune loss, or 5% if you have a DRC. That'd be 1.8t from runes, then 1-1.8t more from the trs. I'd guess it'd cost about 2t for an hour of nuking. So overall you'd spend about 12t breaking in, then get around 3t back. Costs the nuker more to get in and then you're pretty much ****ed. 18k KD's is 20% stealth which will rape you. Plus you'd only have a 5.5% chance of a tect/stone working which is going to cost you a freaking ton of gold and wont help you at that point anyway. Then as long as they're in the plex they can nuke 5/10% per day with no rune loss which would be profit nuking if you weren't on to defend. Or if they hate you they can just wipe out all of your 2's which you shouldn't have in the first place since a) you claim s1 has enough gold to 50 rune every KD in the game and b) you're complaining about others having 1/2 runers so don't be a hypocrite.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:05 AM   #4
ekin
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good idea. +1
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:30 AM   #5
Macca123
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Yeah I like the idea, would be pretty fun and make learning to nuke more easy. Also, nuking banned characters off wouldn't be stupid seeing as you could make some of your gold back.

Lord Sin, I think RF said that the nuking/defending penalties from corruption would be completely removed, only the interest penalty would stay.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:46 AM   #6
Soulless
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The concern of people building huge plexes with walls is a valid one as it always has been, but the more massive the plex the harder it will be to hold it once people break in. If all plex holders are united then that means a random nuker with a few tril can alternate betweeen 1295712957 plexes and hit them all until finding one that's not being defended. Tecting a wall to get through would probably be the best way though, specially with how much gold is around. Ultimately, worst case scenario would be everyone expanding and no one nuking but there's only so much space, and this can already happen, just at a slower rate.
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Old 06-23-2008, 07:59 AM   #7
Diashan
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I'll try to summarize the main points since some were unclear for me until i asked and to save people some reading maybe...
- defending and nuking penalties based on corruption removed
- interest corruption capped
- for every 1k KD's you have that's an hour of nuking someone can do with 0% rune loss, until the hours run out, or you lose 10% of your KD's (or 5% with a DRC), with a minimum of 1 hour for everyone, and after that it switches back to 90% rune loss. also KD's added that day are added to the amount that can be nuked. Say you start with 2k KD's and then settle 500 more KD's that day, 10% of 2k can be nuked plus 500 for a total of 700 with no rune loss. The thing to be careful about here is those 500 you add may be empties, but a nuker doesn't have to take those and can go after high runed KD's instead.
- stones and tects have a chance of not working (should still give a card and DD chance) based on how many KD's you have. to figure out the chance do 1000/x where x is how many KD's you have.

Btw I guess it's obvious I think this is a good idea... I think. Kingdoms/war/plexing is the majority of the game I care about so a major update like this would need some consideration before implementing, especially a lot more than what was originally given to the idea of corruption heh. I've tried to think of every situation that could possibly be exploited and can't think of a way to jew someone over horribly or gain an unfair advantage so far. As long as you keep your trivial KD filter on and don't send yourself a bunch of KD's back and forth nothing really bad can happen. I'd be curious to see how the real time KD count works though, it should be public so that when you gain KD's or something everyone else can see you're open for attack. Having to wait a day for DMU wont work and having to guess if someone has added KD's isn't going to work either.

Last edited by Diashan; 06-23-2008 at 08:31 AM..
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:31 AM   #8
Soulless
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Just double checked to make sure, but according to /ann stealth should already be 1% per 900 kds...

If the target king owns less than 1,000 kingdoms in that plane there will not be a noticable change, but if he owns say 1/10th of the kingdoms in that plane you will have an extra 1 in 10 chance of a sneak attack...if he owns half the kingdoms in the plane you will have an extra 1 in 2 chance of a sneak attack...etc. Also sneak attacks will no longer count toward your total hourly attack limit. A trivial kingdom acceptance filter will be implemented as well to prevent exploitation of the system by purposefully giving someone many kingdoms.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:42 AM   #9
Raistlin Drakan
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this update sounds rly cool... though i think maybe just dropping the rune loss from 90% to like 25% (so u keep 75/100 runes as a nuker) would help make the cost more balanced between attackers and defenders. however the corruption stuff needs to be removed like u guys kinda said... the current system forces everyone to not nuke because they end up screwing themselves over more than anyone else by nuking. also ditch the whole counting kds 1000+ club thing... this is a war game not a communist paradise
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:15 PM   #10
Soulless
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The one exploit that I could come up with would be to tect someone else and then profit nuke your target an unlimited amount of hours (well, until they lose the daily quota). This might not be desired and something would have to be done about it.
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Old 06-23-2008, 05:42 PM   #11
Soulless
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Real time is a extremely important to avoid exploiting. And yeah, I thought of making it so it starts hour after so many kds, btu this is still exploitable. Playing CS right now so I'll finish this post later.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:54 AM   #12
Macca123
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Raistlin, the 90% needs to stay when they aren't 'open', so that it's still a big loss of gold just to blaze through people rather than be patient and nuke them for one hour a day.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:26 PM   #13
Lord Sin
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ok i missed the remove corruption from nuking/deffending... and his theory on the wall thing works.. so yeah i love it... great if you have a decent built plex opens up idiots to attack and takes gold out instead of every plex dumping it in day after day

still like to see tectons stack or a way of hitting the 50+ rune plexs and being able to do a decent amount of damage you would still have to spend 5x more gold... but make it so nothing is really "100% safe" because nuking a plex of 100s would be almost impossible and it wouldnt take long after this update to see alot of them doubling or trippling in runes

they have been safe so long getting by with low runed plexs tey have made enough to pull gold off mules and dump into plexs almost overnight and would really keep the big people safe and still screw over the small guy with his 10x10 of 10s... a 100x50 of 50s isnt worth even looking at even if you wanted to nuke it in a hour you wouldnt do hardly any damage where stacked tects would still cost the same as nuking for say 5 hours... but allow you to do the damage withen your couple hour window this wouldnt really hurt small plex holders because no one in theory unless really bored... would waste the 5 ./ 10t to nuke a plex of 10s-20s and its safe to say not many smaller plex holders build in 40 runes +
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:46 PM   #14
Soulless
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I posted a bunch of war tweaks that I think are necessary that would have an effect on high runed walls, but since it's not limited to this idea and can (should) also be applied to the game in its current state, it's on aseparate thread
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:58 PM   #15
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by the looks of dun on server 2 id say you would only need to watch a couple chars. that cant be to hard when you own 45324543 chars. i do like the idea's that RF has put on here but im sure there are ways around it. Its mostly a matter of who's got the gold. at the rate server 2 is at it needs SOMTHING done. the ratio of gold between hades and the rest of the server is well no comparison. though i dont like the idea of my 50-70s that i finally built being profit nuked. i wanted somone to work to nuke me out this time :P ive nuked my share of 50's and it gets very tedious. So you really gotta piss somone off for them to nuke out 2k of those...although it is possible if i had the gold to nuke all of buld's 50s about a year ago i would have did it. the only way to even things out a bit is hard work and cheaper nuking. but then again the same rules apply to everyone. This seems to be the best possible way to even things out but imo its way to late to fix it and make things a bit more even for small people and big people.
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Old 06-26-2008, 03:51 AM   #16
Diashan
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Quote:
i wanted somone to work to nuke me out this time
It's the same amount of work, just cheaper
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Old 06-27-2008, 04:11 PM   #17
Diashan
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Glitchless: Would you mind elaborating more on what makes this more profitable and easier to nuke smaller people and doesn't change anything with the big people?
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