Adjust requirements for Master Classes

[Anubis]

Currently, The Balance of the game greatly favors archers with a high durability build.

The reason for this is due to the way Archers get their Master bonus, as well as the additional resist/void they get from having their Archers Aide.

I think Fighters, and Casters should have their 'tipping point' lowered for their master requirements to either 60%, or possibly 55%.

OR

Archers should have a requirement of stat distribution similar to Casters / Fighters and not be reliant on just having a Bow and Arrow equipped.

This will make it harder for people to build a revive based character which relies on counter attacks to win inquest.

[almez]

I like this change. It allows us to explore more diverse builds.

When RWK first started, the total stats to play with was low and I think nobody really saw this stat allocation requirement as a constraint. Now, we're seeing archers better able to optimize stat allocations since they don't have restrictions. In other words, with every passing month, archers are getting a slight buff over other classes.

[Glitchless]

We are interested in adding some balance to the existing RWK classes by helping those that are lagging. If anyone wants to write a detailed list of what is currently holding some builds back vs others, it would be well received and likely to cause swift action.

[Anubis]

Monks damage factor is too low, given current armor values with gems. Increase this to possibly the old ratio, in addition they need something to increase the base defensive value of their armor since they miss out on a shield / as well as 2 additional relics. Additionally you could increase the stat values from shadows to even out the damage factor a bit more.

They could get a small bonus from Monk Discipline (increases defense slightly) to make up for the lack of a shield equip as well as the lost relics.


Theurgs.

Have WAY to random of damage, even in 16 D*D's my damage ****ing blows. The damage factor needs to be moved to different D*D's or altered in the way randomization is done for therugist.

Vampires, and Therugs get ****ed on resist as well.

[Anubis]

Casters.

have too low of cnc boost and require a large investment in cnc, comapred to arhcer / therug / fighters, they get the lowest boost besides monks.

[Anubis]

Archers

Too high of resist, for the amount of damage they do compared to other classes.
Class has almost 0 penalty for stacking durability with little to no damage stats, Can vamp beast, duel super effectively.

[Anubis]

Fighters,

Super efficient at beasting, Resist are super high like archers. they get a ton of modded str and dex from their master quest.

Probably the second most efficient class in the game, only issue is currently they have a strong lack of sr's due to drop rates usually favoring bs's ss's or apex's.

This class could use some toning down. or be used as a control for what all classes should equal out too in terms of effectiveness.

[almez]

Innate class resists:
The Master Bowman class now receives an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Grandmaster Bowman class now recieves an additional 20% resistance to voidance.
The Armsman class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Master of Arms class now recieves an additional 20% resistance to voidance.
The Berserker class now receives an additional 5% resistance to voidance.
The Master Berserker class now receives an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Magician class now recieves an additional 5% resistance to voidance.
The Master Magician class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Wizard class now receives an additional 3% resistance to voidance.
The Master Wizard class now receives an additional 5% resistance to voidance.
The Vampire class now receives an additional 15% resistance to voidance.
The Blood Tyrant and Bloodletter class now receives an additional 25% resistance to voidance.

The Theurg/Archer Theurg class now receives an additional 15% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master of the Arcane class now receives an additional 25% resistance to mesmerization.
The Monk class now receives an additional 15% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master of Fists class now receives an additional 25% resistance to mesmerization.
The Armsman class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master of Arms class now recieves an additional 20% resistance to mesmerization.
The Berserker class now receives an additional 5% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master Berserker class now receives an additional 10% resistance to mesmerization.
The Magician class now recieves an additional 5% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master Magician class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to mesmerization.
The Wizard class now receives an additional 3% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master Wizard class now receives an additional 5% resistance to mesmerization.

I increased innate class resists for vamps and monks and added innate resists for their non-master forms. These values are higher than the other classes because they have innate resists to void or mes but not both. I like this because addition also because it create a consistent theme for void/mes for all classes. If these numbers are too high, they can be scaled (so divide every resist % by 2 for example)

[almez]

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[almez]

Impose master class stat requirements for all classes (some classes have quest items that give master class status. You will need both the quest items and meet the stat requirements to be considered master class). To start, at least 50-75% (can be another number) of stats must be in the class's primary stats.

For archers, it's CNC and DEX (and they must equip bow and arrow [whether you equip damage spells or not determines whether you are archer or archer theurgist])
For berserkers and armsman, it's STR and DEX (and must equip one or two non-bow weapons)
For wizards and magicians, it's NTL and CNC (and must equip one or two damage spells and not equip bow and arrow)
For theurgs, it's DUR and CNC (and must equip no damage spells and not equip bow and arrow)
For monks, it's AGI and CNT (and must equip no weapons)
For vamps, it's DUR (and must equip at least one damage spell to distinguish between theurgs)

If you are not master class, the combination of weapon/spell equip plus the master class you are closest to determine your class.

A secondary feature that can be added (optional) is the removal of shadow gear limitations on certain classes. Every class can now can equip 10 shadows. Theurgs (including archer theurgs) can equip two heal spells. Monks can equip two shields. The quest item that allow archers to equip damage spells doesn't change, and the quest item that allows theurgs to equip a heal spell allows them to equip two.

[almez]

If you have SoSe, wizards, magicians, Master Magicians/Wizards, Theurgs, Master of the Arcane get a dodge ability that is as effective as equipping two shields but only works against attacks from bow and arrow.

The theme here is that certain classes are better against other classes. We currently have archers > fighters, and fighters > casters (innate res along with slightly less damage multipliers). So let's complete the circle. All casters get a bonus against archers.

Archers > Fighters > Casters > Archers

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by almez

Innate class resists:
The Master Bowman class now receives an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Grandmaster Bowman class now recieves an additional 20% resistance to voidance.
The Armsman class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Master of Arms class now recieves an additional 20% resistance to voidance.
The Berserker class now receives an additional 5% resistance to voidance.
The Master Berserker class now receives an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Magician class now recieves an additional 5% resistance to voidance.
The Master Magician class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to voidance.
The Wizard class now receives an additional 3% resistance to voidance.
The Master Wizard class now receives an additional 5% resistance to voidance.
The Vampire class now receives an additional 15% resistance to voidance.
The Blood Tyrant and Bloodletter class now receives an additional 25% resistance to voidance.

The Theurg/Archer Theurg class now receives an additional 15% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master of the Arcane class now receives an additional 25% resistance to mesmerization.
The Monk class now receives an additional 15% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master of Fists class now receives an additional 25% resistance to mesmerization.
The Armsman class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master of Arms class now recieves an additional 20% resistance to mesmerization.
The Berserker class now receives an additional 5% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master Berserker class now receives an additional 10% resistance to mesmerization.
The Magician class now recieves an additional 5% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master Magician class now recieves an additional 10% resistance to mesmerization.
The Wizard class now receives an additional 3% resistance to mesmerization.
The Master Wizard class now receives an additional 5% resistance to mesmerization.

I increased innate class resists for vamps and monks and added innate resists for their non-master forms. These values are higher than the other classes because they have innate resists to void or mes but not both. I like this because addition also because it create a consistent theme for void/mes for all classes.

I'd actuall like to see the base resist MUCH lower. in the sub 10 area.
I think with rezithis, and having the increases resist from items / relics the values are too high and cause too much excessive RNG procs.

I believe no class should have more than 15% resist, with their master class items. (not factoring in items)

[Glitchless]

Input from others, particularly those who currently have monks, theurgs and vamp builds would be appreciated.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Input from others, particularly those who currently have monks, theurgs and vamp builds would be appreciated.

Anubis is purely a therug / vamp (ive been testing both to see the limitations / short comings)

Edit: I xfered him from caster because i wanted to test the viability of a therug in dueling. (specifically because i think high durability builds have a huge advantage over builds that require damage stats)

Finding an actual "monk" that isnt just someone messing around will be difficult, The 'consensus' between players is that monks are utter garbage. They are very very poor beasters (due to missing so much cnt / agi ) and they are poor in duels due to missing the resist / relic combos, and the vast defensive loss (shield defensive values are double that of regular armor pieces so this is a major hit)


Team Wafer, Graf Zepplin, Jesus H Christ, are the only 'real' monks i think on the server. You'd have to make a monk thats fully suited with gems to allow us to test, because noones going to invest the time or money in building one currently.

[Anubis]

Can you make a Monk with 125Md, 8 shadows, 10 DE's and rank 3 Rubies @glitchless.

Asking around between servers yielded no results for valid monks.

I'm not exactly sure what we could do to test, unless you did some sandboxed duels. using the 'uber' chars we know to be built 'correctly'

We already know monks cant beast for **** due to weapon damage being so low.

[Niizandar]

I do have a monk but he'S only at 99 aa,ap and 110 MD and only 3 fire. i have no problem killing reg however for killing uber that'S another story with 4-6 D*Dev in DCC *Dotb* i do a mere 20mil or so per hi on a gmt.

I do have a suggestion tho because currently shadow **** monk big time along with the fact that 125 in MD and AP do less dmg than a fighter with a heavy Demonic...we'Re up to shadow...

May i suggest that monk either get q uest item that grant a 20% shadow ambush bonus or a 2 handed weapon like a Daibo.

[Wafer]

I have a SoSe Monk, and there's a few challenges I've had trying to make him competitive in both PVE (beasts) and PVP (acumen).

It lacks an SR or BS like relic. So for Higher-end beasts, I need D*Ds to kill. They also don't have a Super relic. I have 125 MD, 99AA and 99AP. I have full approbs and rank 1 on rubies, and i still barely break the damage cap on Higher-end beast with out D*Ds.

Meanwhile I have a SoS fighter that capped out before level 2000 that has a Demo SR suit and like 3 fires than can one-shot a dragon eater. Very low skills as well.

In acumen, you have access to 14 relics instead of 15 or 16 like other classes. Additionally, its DCC/DRO armor or Shadow. Having Godly - Earthen hurts you too much, so unless you have the resources to make 8 shadows, you have much lower armor defense. You also have less of a chance to mez/void/devoid, etc. because of the 14 relic slots.

This ends up making monks both the worst or one of the worst at PVP and PVE on both high end accounts and low end accounts.

I think something that would help monks, and other classes that are struggling, is a relic like SR and BS. Additionally, tweaking the benefit of Godly+ armor to help monks may also belp.
I've also heard the idea of Gloves or something similar as a way to have 16 relic slots to use.

You need so many resources to make a passable monk. You'd need a way to get 125 MD, which for most isn't an easy task. Your probably need 125 defensive as well to stand a chance in acumen. Before I got it, I'd getting taken out by uncapped, untransferred mules because they could still hit me for maximum damage. To even be competitive with beasts, you'd need multiple D*Ds, Rubies, etc. I've been much more successful with far less work/resources with other classes. The end game of it just goes no where compared to a caster, fighter, archer, etc.

[almez]

Vampires have a much lower ability to attack or counterattack in dueling so they should have a buff to innate resistance for voidance. The multiplier damage bonus they get from fangs/SoSe for beasts should also apply to players. This might sound like overkill but vamps already don't have 2x attack/cast and get much more heavily penalized when they are voided compared to other classes.

I think allowing theurg to equip 2 heal spells (removing the one spell limitation) would do much to help the balance (additional shadow increases theurg dmg by 70%)

Monks are more balanced than people think. Some quick math for monk discipline:
At a skill of 125, you'd do approximately 30,000 times more damage than you would with a Rustless Lifeceaser.
As a fighter, I compared damage between a Heavy Rustless Lifeceaser and Heavy shadow and did ~47x more damage. Then I multiplied this by 100x (the str bonus from warriors warder). Then I multiplied by 38 (10 shadows equipped is 1.44STR^10 multiplier to strength). Thats 180000x more damage than Rustless Lifeceaser for fighter. Monks get 30000 times 6 (8 shadows limitation for monks, 1.25CNT^8) is 180000x more damage. I'm surprised this number is very very close to fighters.

I think wafer is right that since there is no BS or SR for monks, the build is not as accessible to newbies. But this is true for archers too, since without Archer's Aide, they can't really kill any beasts, let alone GoLR which drops it. Plus archers have the nasty bow/arrow delay.

I am a big fan of allowing all classes to equip 10 shadows (and I specified in a previous reply how it could be achieved) but I think this might buff monks TOO much based on my quick calculations. If monks were allowed 10 shadows, the Monk Discipline multiplier should be lowered to 20000 Rustless Lifeceasers, since 1.25CNT^10 is around 9 and 20000 * 9 = 180000x.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by almez

Vampires have a much lower ability to attack or counterattack in dueling so they should have a buff to innate resistance for voidance. The multiplier damage bonus they get from fangs/SoSe for beasts should also apply to players. This might sound like overkill but vamps already don't have 2x attack/cast and get much more heavily penalized when they are voided compared to other classes.

I think allowing theurg to equip 2 heal spells (removing the one spell limitation) would do much to help the balance (additional shadow increases theurg dmg by 70%)

Monks are more balanced than people think. Some quick math for monk discipline:
At a skill of 125, you'd do approximately 30,000 times more damage than you would with a Rustless Lifeceaser.
As a fighter, I compared damage between a Heavy Rustless Lifeceaser and Heavy shadow and did ~47x more damage. Then I multiplied this by 100x (the str bonus from warriors warder). Then I multiplied by 38 (10 shadows equipped is 1.44STR^10 multiplier to strength). Thats 180000x more damage than Rustless Lifeceaser for fighter. Monks get 30000 times 6 (8 shadows limitation for monks, 1.25CNT^8) is 180000x more damage. I'm surprised this number is very very close to fighters.

I think wafer is right that since there is no BS or SR for monks, the build is not as accessible to newbies. But this is true for archers too, since without Archer's Aide, they can't really kill any beasts, let alone GoLR which drops it. Plus archers have the nasty bow/arrow delay.

I am a big fan of allowing all classes to equip 10 shadows (and I specified in a previous reply how it could be achieved) but I think this might buff monks TOO much based on my quick calculations. If monks were allowed 10 shadows, the Monk Discipline multiplier should be lowered to 20000 Rustless Lifeceasers, since 1.25CNT^10 is around 9 and 20000 * 9 = 180000x.

The issue with the calculations is that jeff nerfed monk damage and the 'old' description is no longer correct for the power level of RLC. You can run a monk with 125 md, and then equip a Heavy demo and see the values arent even close.

[Anubis]

Quite simply, 125MD Should be the equivalency of a Shadow Bow in terms of raw attack power. (or similar).

The current problem with Monk Discipline is that every time a new 'weapon' tier would be released, there would be a requirement to increase the power level monks get from MD.

Currently you have it set at 1.1, i think a 1.2/1.3 increase may put monks back to where they need to be in terms of raw, attack power (not including stats / modifiers).

In addition, they should get a 45% extra defense at 125MD, (Monks Discipline doesn't just revolve around them becoming stronger, but also being able to endure more punishment). This would work out to roughly 1.7% increase in armor rating per skill point in MD (factored in before Defensive skill). This will increase the viability of monks in duels, as well as helping them beast. while still giving you plenty of room to alter balance them more with stat increases. In addition, Monks could recieve a 'speed' boost opposite of archers which reduces delay by 50% (not 100%) as if they had a rapid spell equipped, due to the fact they have no weapon and should be lighter / quicker.