Adjust requirements for Master Classes

[Tris]

i'm by no means an uber on the servers so take my imput for what you will
i've played every class at multiple points in the games history and you can clearly see meta shifts into directions that a majority follows

Back in the hayday, Monks were the top tier duelers, they had the skills to cover damage where base stats were lacking and didn't need the huge influx of gear to be impactful
Then they were nerfed both directly with the damage adjustments, and then indirectly when shadows were released - they need a way to keep up with gear changes so they can stay competitive in both PVP and PVE - it should not take me 5 dozen clicks to punch out a mid tier beast..... **** even attempting a DE before someone takes there time logging into a different toon to steal it
they could definitely use some type of "brawlers" weapon like gauntlets or a bowstaff(2handed) to help them push back up into the ranks as even remotely competitive

Theurgs, overall i feel like they have been pretty well rounded for most of the games history with them, lately they have fallen off because the innate mez and resists just seem blahh, and the ability for archers to get the edge on them with shadows knocks them down a tier for sure
Gems being added just knocked them down further because to increase your power you rely on emeralds which gets countered by any class that utilizes Rubies or Sapphires, rendering there main stat useless against it

Fighters i feel like are the middle ground with everything, beasting comes fairly easy with enough work put into it and gear needs to be good, but not insanely critical like it is for most other classes.... their PVP aspect is decent in the sense that they can be geared well and perform pretty good against anything thrown at them. I agreed Fighters should be the middle ground and base line for all other classes

Casters fall in line with fighters, except a step down due to class items not being as effective on them

Vamps, i love this class the most but i hate it as well because it is SO easy to nullify their damage in an extremely impactful way. the beast damage from Fangs helps, but it still takes 4-5 D*Devs to one shot the low tier beasts and mid and up take 2-3 whacks, makes it hard to be competitive in the beasting scene with them
they need something to push damage on beasts as well as making them more viable for dueling, maybe a quest item that protects certain relics from being nullified or make them effective even through nullification.

[Anubis]

Something I also wanted to make sure we paid attention to.

A big reason for the disparity in classes is due to the sheer amount of stats we have now, verses when the classes were designed as well as most of the content in the game.

I've brought it up before, but I think having the level cap so high is a problem, and doesn't really serve much 'purpose'. If the maximum level was back to 1500 or something, I think this would drastically alter the landscape of the current meta.

[Niizandar]

Here a little preview of what a monk with 110 MD do WITH 2 D*Dev, all in DCC *Dotb* and 3 fire

You hit A MASTER TEMPLAR for 3,792,934
You hit A MASTER TEMPLAR for 3,322,125

mind you my fighter would rekt the **** out of this beast with 2 D*Dev even my caster without D*Dev or super deal much more than that.

[l337]

I mean a SoSE theurg multiple D*D, VS, part shadow still tickles a DE - whilst also losing out in dueling with low resists and the aforementioned difficulty in gemming that gets countered by the other classes gems.

Not exactly sure the best way to rebalance it.
Perhaps could make a quest to combine a TC with ash to upgrade it;
Anubis has mentioned altering emeralds in some way eg a small theurg damage factor; Or perhaps (even if it means people play catch up for a month) consider adding a more theurg orientated gem;
I'm not sure but perhaps making it so you could equip two heal spells for the added stats might be a bit strong.

[Tris]

Originally Posted by l337

I mean a SoSE theurg multiple D*D, VS, part shadow still tickles a DE - whilst also losing out in dueling with low resists and the aforementioned difficulty in gemming that gets countered by the other classes gems.

Not exactly sure the best way to rebalance it.
Perhaps could make a quest to combine a TC with ash to upgrade it;
Anubis has mentioned altering emeralds in some way eg a small theurg damage factor; Or perhaps (even if it means people play catch up for a month) consider adding a more theurg orientated gem;
I'm not sure but perhaps making it so you could equip two heal spells for the added stats might be a bit strong.

I don't think letting them have 2 heals is that big a deal, it brings them in line with every other class in terms of number of shadows(except monks), and that would help fix some of the damage problems, because they would get the additional damage factor from Demo and up

adding a gem specifically for theurgs wouldn't be a bad idea if so many of the SoSe toons on the server wasn't already invested into other gem kingdoms, it would be very hard to play catch up without spending to lower kingdom count or just getting a whole new SoSe toon to take the spots

[Glitchless]

[Anubis]

Theres no ****ing monks.

[Anubis]

I will say this much and its all personal opinion.

I think all classes should be reduced in power from their current state. Pulling some power out of the game will make balance in the future easier.

I think all classes should have equal resist (innate) and there simply not be a triad of 'this class is better than this class' Each one should be able to duel, and beast just as effectively as the other classes. The only difference should be play style. I think the real skill caps should come from gear, and knowing how to gem / appro / equip items correctly.

[Anubis]

Also, not opposed to another skill for therugs as well, which increases their 'minimum' side of damage modifier.

[almez]

Originally Posted by Anubis

I will say this much and its all personal opinion.

I think all classes should be reduced in power from their current state. Pulling some power out of the game will make balance in the future easier.

I think all classes should have equal resist (innate) and there simply not be a triad of 'this class is better than this class' Each one should be able to duel, and beast just as effectively as the other classes. The only difference should be play style. I think the real skill caps should come from gear, and knowing how to gem / appro / equip items correctly.

I am a fan of the "this class is better than this class" rotation (archer > fighter > caster > archer) because that gives differentiation. No class should be "equal" to other classes, even the innate resists (what's the point if all the classes were nearly the same? Then get rid of classes alltogether). One good thing about the rotation is that if there are unforeseen balance issues in the future, it can be somewhat mitigated (since every class has an explicit counter-class except maybe vamps which don't have an explicit class they are strong or weak against).

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by almez

I am a fan of the "this class is better than this class" rotation (archer > fighter > caster > archer) because that gives differentiation. No class should be "equal" to other classes, even the innate resists (what's the point if all the classes were nearly the same? Then get rid of classes alltogether). One good thing about the rotation is that if there are unforeseen balance issues in the future, it can be somewhat mitigated (since every class has an explicit counter-class except maybe vamps which don't have an explicit class they are strong or weak against).

Theres a fundamental difference between classes being equal, and classes being like in terms of power before you add bonuses / gear.

All classes should be equal in terms of power, durability, and usefulness (not a feature used in rwk because theres no team component). At their base state. The difference in power should be derived from their gear, and other combat factors.

The tough part about balancing characters in RWK is there is no movement in combat, or real 'turn' style combat to provide real balance around classes. If you thought of attacking or how each class would attack in game vampires would always come out on top over every other class. Archers would always be the weakest.

Fighers and Monks are always in your face
Vampires could attack you while simply running around with shields up defending.
Archers have to shoot you with a bow, and would get rekt by everything
Casters not even sure, they could do anyhting.

Rwk has a serious lack of 'class identity' (something you can read about in game design) Yes the classes are there, but there is almost no reason to be certain ones, they provide nothing to the player for playing that class other than to change which button you click.

There theoretically isnt much use in having many classes in rwk because it all comes down to devoid procs, and revive chance. All you're doing ultimately in the end is click Defend, Attack, or Cast Nothing else.

Being a Fighter doesnt give you something anyone else cant get besides maybe a bit easier beasting. Which is only useful for 6 beast a month.


What im saying is, if RWK isnt going to have class balance, and allow something for classes to actually do different things or bring different things to the table (buffs etc) then having classes really makes no sense. So all of us should be 'equal' in terms of base power. Then the game should get more design in terms of gear / class specific boost which alter the dynamic of combat or the game.

Dont balance the game around beasting at all. Beast are meant to be rare and awesome but they simply are not in their current state.

[Anubis]

I would almost like to see Jeff do some test with Devoids, and Voids removed from the game. As well as the Ambush from shadows. Just simply to see where it put us in terms of meta power.

[Anubis]

Also, I would like to see Everyone Unlocked for the inquest. if you make game alterations for balance.

[Anubis]

I just spent 100k ash converting my suit to
Currently Equipped Items
Left Hand: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Shield *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Head: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Helmet *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Right Hand: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Shield *Devil`s Resistant Devoidance*
Hands: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Gauntlets *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Chest: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Mantle *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Arms: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Sleeves *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Left Spell: Nothing
Legs: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Leggings *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Feet: Durability Shadow Scale of Invisibility Boots *Devil`s Putrid Devoidance*
Right Spell: Rapid Ethereality
Relic 1: Devil`s Accelerated Devoidance
Relic 2: Devil`s Skillful Devoidance
Relic 3: Devil`s Warring Devoidance
Relic 4: Devil`s Opulent Devoidance
Relic 5: Vampire`s Amaranthine Scorn
Relic 6: Vampire`s Amaranthine Scorn

And I can still barley kill **** as a Therug. Literally wasted 100k ash to test this.

[Glitchless]

What can/can't you kill?

[Anubis]

After collecting some data.
1. I feel terribly weak against an under geared fighter. We only dueled a few times but Horus was able to shut me down rather easily; in almost nothing worth noting.

2. I am SUPER inconsistent in my output of damage to mobs in the ID. Im hitting the Gaia Harpy, which is what the player base consistently compares 'uber' beast damage to for roughly 6mil-150mil (with a rush). On occasion i'm dealing a 9x91/2 but its much rarer than sub 50mil damage.

3. I havent tested beast damage as I dont have the ash anymore to afford it, but comparing to the damage i deal to the monsters in the I'd my output is substantially lower than almost any other class that would be in similar gear as me. The only benefit i currently have is survive-ability which is rendered useless by ruby / sapphire / devoids/void.

Optionally, I'm aware I have 1 extra DSD but thats because i ran out of ash to rotate them while testing this. But regardless, nothing i switch that too would make up for the wildly variant damage and inconsistency i have.

Edit, after posting this i Killed a DE. But again... wildly inconsistent damage.

[Niizandar]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

To be honest we gave you the dmg we were doing with a theurg on a DE and mobs in ID and a monk dmg on a GMT with DxDev and on both barelly doing more than 200mil dmg TOP. Is there something we forgot to mention you want us to provide?

[Anubis]

13 D*D's, 2 Vas. Fully Shadowed. 8/10 R5 Sapphires, 2/10 R6 emeralds, and im basically tickling an mt's *******. Meanwhile a fighter in a free SR suit can 9x9x2 it blindfolded with a wooden spoon.

https://imgur.com/a/mDd6Hay

I have 1400.00 worth of equipment and cant even compete with a free drop quest item fighter.

Seems ****ing pathetic.

[Glitchless]

Originally Posted by Niizandar

To be honest we gave you the dmg we were doing with a theurg on a DE and mobs in ID and a monk dmg on a GMT with DxDev and on both barelly doing more than 200mil dmg TOP. Is there something we forgot to mention you want us to provide?

Looking for potential differing opinions, not demanding more info. There will be a class balance patch for RWK by the end of the month.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Glitchless

Looking for potential differing opinions, not demanding more info. There will be a class balance patch for RWK by the end of the month.

I pm'ed you in reply, but you must have already left.

Comments on unlocking all players for inquest going forward after balance changes?